1/5
> Hello.I was searching the internet and I found a site of a trinitarian
> apologetic
>
> http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/JWs%20and%20Deity.htm
>
> He basically presents 3 claims,making parallels with Jehovah of the OT and
> Jesus of the NT
>
> 1st claim
> 1. God alone is the instrumental cause and sustainer of all creation.
>
> 2. Jesus is the instrumental cause and sustainer of all creation.
>
> 3. Jesus is therefore God.
>
>
> 2nd claim
> 1. Only the True God is eternal life.
>
> 2. Jesus is eternal life.
>
> 3. Jesus is therefore the True God.
>
>
> 3rd claim
> 1. God’s power is eternal.
>
> 2. Jesus is God’s power.
>
> 3. Jesus is therefore eternal
>
>
> Im interested in finding answers to his claims.If you could help,Id be
> grateful.Thanks
Your welcome.
That’s why Jesus has been termed the “Son of God” in it’s most basic meaning, the only-begotten one.
Saying that he is God would have to negate the basics of his being begotten and a son, which means a beginning. (an origin, Micah5:2)
Then he is further described as the “firstborn of all creation” and the “firstborn from the dead”, in both cases a birth was required, which means in both cases, Jesus was powerless, and in the first creation of him, only begotten, non-existent.
That Jesus died, for real, is also indication that he is not God. The he now possesses indestructible life as stated in Hebrews, and immortality, was indeed a superior position he was elevated to.
If Jesus was already God, that it would be impossible for him to have attained a superior position described in the bible.
In 1Cor15:24-28 we also see that Jesus subjects himself to God, as all things were also subjected to him. Subjection is a subordinate position, in fact Jesus worships God, and is NOT a worshipper of himself.
That also fits with Jesus mission to perform perfectly obedience under test, as Adam lost and there by Jesus is now Last Adam. He had to perform that test as written so that death AND Satan could be done away with as the “last enemy”, 1Cor15:26, and the Devil’s connection to death’s power in Heb2:14, thereby he removes two enemies almost simultaneously, for Satan is the root sinner and liar, that externally influenced mankind for evil, and though yes mankind by freewill also sinned, God has provided an external righteous power to recover man. We were truly in a bind beyond our power once sin and death entered the picture.
Jesus performance in absolute moral integrity, in the flesh, was the very issue raised in Eden, and Jesus proves flesh can withstand Satan’s lies, and that performing obedience is what all man must face at some time, but with the advantage of Jesus power.
Why?
Because as stated the “last enemy” must be done away with. But, as many in the churches would have us believe, death is removed by fleeing earth. But is that the case?
No, because when Satan is released to test, he cannot tempt heaven, the issue of sin and death is caused by disobedience, and humans are the ones with death in them to be removed. Death is an issue not in heaven, but on earth, and several scriptures indicate death must be 1. done away with; 1Cor15:26; Rev21:3,4; 2. And satan as well must also be removed by destruction; Heb2:14; Rev20:10+.
So death is an issue which started on earth by disobedience, and obedience as perfection is reached, must be maintained on earth, for those in heaven are no longer subject to death:
(Hebrews 5:9) . . .and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him. . .
So we see obedience is part of the removal of death, hence Satan after the 1000 years, attempts to bring death back into man by disobedience, it is a huge issue in both God’s and Satan’s controversy.
Only by full obedience through that test, can death truly be removed. That is an issue which heaven cannot be tested with, and of course a hell-fire myth does not answer as well.
Cont…
2/5
So obviously if we see the seriousness of the issue, Satan calling all flesh corruptible by freewill and sin, and that no flesh could pass his assault of moral integrity, then we also see the importance of Jesus maintaining a perfect state, as it is said he “learned obedience” and that he was “made perfect” so the issue was a challenge to Jesus Christ that will have everlasting meaning in resolving Satan’s lies about flesh, the root of his issue in Eden was human obedience.
There is simply no way God is abandoning the purpose of Edenic perfection on earth to suit Adam’s and Satan’s issues, it is an unchangeable purpose. If we set aside the church’s bypass of this issue which is so important, Jesus answered it by a fully obedient death retaining man’s opportunity to live forever on earth, then we see the church alternative destination, hell-fire, makes no sense.
God has not willed everlasting life to sinners, regardless of the place, so hell is not a realm of life, but man’s dead condition in it’s return to dust, what God stated Adam would become, dust, as that is what flesh is in it’s make-up.
So the only destinations which God has made available to obedient humans is everlasting life in heaven, or on earth. Earth was the original will and purpose for the human home. Simply put, had Adam never sinned or Eve, they would still be living the Edenic eternity. And Jesus is making it as if Adam never existed, because Jesus is now considered the perfect Last Adam, which will take time to apply that perfect body for perfection, “the bread of heaven”, by the use of that atoning sacrificial covering, the blood.
Since the “bread” or perfect fleshly body of Jesus has no use for spirit immortal bodies, it must have a grander application, and indeed the bible hints at that application.
Since Adam in all of us earthlings, is a deep physical design with taint, sin, and corruption, it must be removed, with sin and death, as far as what carries death in our physicality, brought in by sin, and made worse by more sin.
As long as sin and Adam’s design resides in us in an imperfection we of course cannot understand in full, death will rule as king as Paul called it. Paul was also the one to state that Last Adam, is a life giving spirit. But God is the one giving all the heaven’s it’s life, so Jesus “life within himself” also has grander application.
What?
Jesus must be called, Eternal Father, meaning he must become a father to something.
Now heaven’s beings are all God’s sons, Jesus in Hebrews is said not to be ashamed to call them brothers, since all stem from one, God.
(Hebrews 2:11) . . .For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,”
So obviously Jesus is Father to none in heaven, they are ALL his brothers, from angels, to 144000.
Yet recall, Jesus MUST be called Eternal Father:
(Isaiah 9:6-7) . . .And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end. . .
So then who are his children?
Well we know mankind currently has a “Finite Father”, and that is Adam, mankind has a dead father. Jesus became perfect flesh, Jesus retained perfect flesh, and Jesus delivered that sacrifice to God:
(Hebrews 9:11-12) . . .However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 he entered…with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.
So there is great significance to what God accepted. How that literal blood is used in actuality is not known to humans, what it does is, it covers sin.
3/5
So there is great significance to what God accepted. How that literal blood is used in actuality is not known to humans, what it does is, it covers sin. It is how Jesus purchases the entirety:
(1 John 2:2) . . .he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.
So is that “whole world” going to heaven? Is not the earthly issue the one Satan raised? Satan removed from heaven, will never test beings in heaven, that is done, so where and what will he test?
So that sacrifice covers human beings, NOT heavenly incorruptibles, or angels, they ALL have no sin.
That blood was an way for some to enter heaven, but once in heaven, they are instantly transformed into perfect immortality, indestructible, untestable.
So the blood for the 1000 years, has great meaning for the “whole world” which Jesus purchased by a sacrifice, the blood of which covers sin, for that 1000 year rulership over earth, where these “firstfruits” will rule with Jesus as Kings AND priests for the 1000 years.
But there is more.
What we know too the blood, it is part of a perfect body, a whole sacrifice, and the partakers in that covenant do not only partake of wine (blood), but of bread (body), so both parts of that perfect sacrifice have great significance.
But what?
Well let’s think, why priests?
Heaven is sinless, they need no sin covering priestly activity, Jesus already COMPLETED that task, they were forgiven, they are now perfected incorruptible just like Jesus.
Let’s also consider the church hell-fire myth. Are sinners in hell needing a priest? No, they are eternally condemned according to that metaphysical philosophy.
The where are priest needed? Heaven has sinless beings with no need of priests, hell-fire is condemned and damned to eternal torment.
Well we see, that is also why the hell-fire “solution” makes no sense. Jesus already stated there would be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.
The “great crowd” is also seen still in need of guidance:
(Revelation 7:15-17) . . .the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
So why are they guided to fountains of life? Because they are still in death. Sinlessness and forgiveness and covering of priestly service is the only way to partake of true waters of life, sin which is death, must be gradually removed.
We see this “tent” which God spoke of also mentioned in a very important scripture:
(Revelation 21:3-4) . . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
So the obvious connection of that tent, is that it is WITH mankind, and God “will reside with them”, they will be his peoples.
Then the tears are removed, the pain, the misery.
What does that mean?
Death and sin are no more.
Now we see that those priests are in fact very busy for 1000 years, on earth, removing the “last enemy” death, and preparing man for Satan’s release from abyss for a short time. The import here to Jesus sacrifice is that blood covered the sins of this “world” for the obedient who repented and continued obeying.
But also, the perfection of Jesus “Last Adam” body is also then possible to be in only a sinless human, as Jesus himself was sinless, and must be Eternal Father. The body therefore is the means by which physical perfection is also reached, Adam must be fully removed.
4/5
I covered all that because a trinitarian belief system, negates all the important features of why Jesus has attained this great position: He is obedient to God, regardless of the circumstances, and for that great example, God has greatly rewarded him, obedience is eternal life in other words.
Jesus subordination, NOT his equality with God, is the entire issue which heaven and earth were tempted by Satan.
Jesus in the trinitarian position is a being equal to God the Father himself, which everything about Jesus was his subjection to God’s will not his own, to his speaking God’s word, Nit his own, to him rendering himself even to death, in full obedience to God’s purposes, not his own.
Jesus is slandered by the trinity, to actually be one in equality with God, when in fact:
(1 Corinthians 15:26-28) . . .As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Jesus subjects himself to God, and all things were subjected to Jesus for this accomplishment, that Jesus ONCE AGAIN, in even greater position and being, subjects himself to God, so that God, NOT HIMSELF, is all things to everyone.
Jesus is the picture, of a being who worships God perfectly, and in full humility, subjects his entire being to God, to the last drop, come hell or high water, forever.
===
Now the only being who claims equality with God, is Satan. That is how we know the great blasphemy the trinity teaches, is of Satanic teaching. The Jesus of the trinity, co-equal with God, simply does not exist, but as Satan in reality, the exact opposite picture of Jesus, he claims equality with God, he does his will, he speaks his word, he tells his lies, he is a failure.
These issues must be emphatically demonstrated before the “whole world” in the 1000 year reign. Satan hides in a lie, as he is quite successful today, but that is being exposed now in part, but when he is abyssed, his full evil, nature, and lies will be exposed before all, and his role in sin on earth, must also be dealt with as gen3:15 states, his “head”, his intellectual evil power, must be destroyed, and Jesus subservience to God, was the key for that event:
(Hebrews 2:14-16) 14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; 15 and [that] he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. 16 For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed.
Then as stated, this great act of sacrifice, self sacrifice, is in assistance to not angels of heaven, but Abraham’s seed which has an earthly counterpart, Gen12, “families of the ground” and Gen 22, “nations of the earth”, and thereby the great curse of Adam’s sin, is removed:
(Revelation 22:1-3) . . .And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations. 3 And no more will there be any curse.. . .
So we see that “seed”, promised in Gen3:15, sealed by Abrahamic covenant and Abraham’s obedience and faith, is a far deeper story than many now realize, it is the complete recovery of what Adam and Satan attempted to destroy in death by sin and lies.
5/5
Now less importantly but also significant, we see the “trinity” is not so clear, in fact without centuries of Platonic metaphysical development, hybridized into the bible’s various scriptures, we would have no “trinity”.
In effect, a Greek philosopher, is the Father of the trinity. Now what place does a spiritistic seeker of deep metaphysical knowledge, a magi of his day, have in common with the real Jesus Christ, and with God Almighty who considers this world’s “wise men” foolishness?
Nothing at all. The Plato element, from a secular standpoint, is a red flag that the “trinity” is nothing more than an attempt to amalgamate worldly wisdom of pagans with God’s truth, equalling an invalid metaphysical doctrine system of human and demon origins, creating a blasphemy, and of course, hidding great actualities of the bible’s and God’s truth, which he simply reveals, with no need of worldly metaphysics and philosophers.
====
Greek Philosophy and the Trinity
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/philosophy.htm
The Trinity Doctrine Is Pagan
http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/trinity.html
The Nicene Creed and Truth about the Trinity
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm
Plato The Kabbalist (Satanist)
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Plato_Kabbalist.htm
How Is the Trinity Explained?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_02.htm
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm
Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_03.htm
WHO IS “the Only True God”?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm
