Revelation’s 24 Elders and 144000 are Identical: The 24 Divisions of the Kingdom of Priests; Continual King-Priest Servants of Jehovah Almighty God through Jesus Christ the Primary King-Priest – Exodus19:6; 1Peter 2:9
> Im on an exchange of arguments(maybe its called a “debate”) with a guy. Our
> subject is, who are the 144000 and if they really are the 24 elders. First of
> all I have presented a strong argument that the 24 elders are the ones of the
> first resurrection in Rev 20. He seems to avoid this by telling me “Anyway, but
> they are surely not the 144000″.
>
> I tell him that the 24 elders are the 144000, he insists they are not. The
> conversation goes on and he has presented a strong argument I cant answer.
>
> Here are his words:
> “Now how could the 144,000 be the elders if they are singing before them? You
> said that maybe only “some” are resurrected at that time. However, the context
> seems to indicate that it is ALL of the 144,000 singing. Rev. 14:1 says that
> 144,000 were with Jesus on Mount Zion. Second verse 3 CLEARLY says that the
> full number of 144,000 WERE redeemed from the earth. So clearly, they already
> in heaven. How can this be?
> Rev. 14:3 reads “3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and
> before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but
> the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
> If the only “men” that were in heaven were the 144,000, who is the men that
> couldn’t learn the song that only the 144,000 knew? “
>
> ///
> Any help upon this, would be highly appreciated.
>
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This is kind of long, so I’ll say quickly, the most significant aspect of the 144000 and 24 elders, is that BOTH are shown singing the “new song”. That this is before the “elders” in that the 24division significance as a detailed part of the 144000 mission, would be like the football team celebrating before the quarterback. He is also celebrating, but his significance in the team is different, yet the celebration includes all, as does the “new song” and this biblical “team”.
(At the and of this I tried to summarize this “new song” as common of both, and other similarities, under a heading “Similarities of 144000 and 24 elders” at the end)
144000 as a bigger more generalized picture:
Let me first demonstrate from the bible’s own principle symbolisms, that the 144000 are a picture of an overall “new creation” which has some very deep significance. Yes easy to understand with a little attention, but what they must become is what is very deep, they have a two-fold primary mission with Jesus Christ, just like him in fact, they must be a “holy nation” a “kingdom” of kings AND priests. This will lead into understanding the 24 elders, as we get into the priestly significance. But first an overview.
Yes the 24 elders stumps many people even at the seminaries, of course no surprise when knowing that the anointed themselves were the ones who ascertained who they are in a way between God, themselves and the spirit in them and God for that purpose. It’s also fitting for the role the potential to be in in that Kingdom, which is tested to the full before “the crown of righteousness” is given, which Paul received at his ministry’s end, the only time he was fully assured he had received that final sealing apparently.
That becomes the “crown of life” as well when they actually receive that immortality.
They also ascertained the full meaning of the “other sheep”. The point being the anointed working patiently through time, with God’s direction also had to determine the 24 elders meaning. Which has been now well explained. We know we have 12 sets of 12000 for that 144000, so the 12′s are that divinely balanced number which God uses for organizational significance, like the 12 tribes of Israel, a nation organized according to divinely identified families throughout the 12 tribes. (The 24 also has a special significance applying to the priesthood.)
So the 144000 also picture a super-nation, the “new creation” the “Israel of God”, Gal6:15-16, yet they are also a perfect sampling of the “earth”, they represent the 12 tribes of Israel, but in a capacity related to Last Adam, Jesus Christ – not the fleshly nation. We have the luxury of the insight that Matt19:28′s “re-creation” also “regeneration” must apply to humans of the “nations of the earth” as promised to Abraham, in a covenant which is still active (Gen22):
(Galatians 3:16-18) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. 17 Further, I say this: As to the covenant previously validated by God, the Law that has come into being four hundred and thirty years later does not invalidate it, so as to abolish the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is due to law, it is no longer due to promise; whereas God has kindly given it to Abraham through a promise.
I note this because the 144000 has great meaning. First it must be that “nation”, the Israel of God, not dependent on a fleshy nation, but only that “seed” Jesus Christ, who will receive the “new covenant” fulfillment, as was offered to Israel in a fleshly way, but whom only those with faith are declared righteous, for of course Adamic performance of any law but sin’s law, is impossible to meet Gods requirement of perfection. But Jesus Christ was capable of finishing the perfection, he fulfilled the law and the prophets, and yet he was accursed by the fleshly nation, thereby even that law, was also abolished in Jesus Christ, and those who truly consider what happened to him, even his faith, though he did fulfill the law, is what counted with Jehovah who restored him to immortality, incorruptibility and Kingship according to their covenant, which Jesus mentioned when he made his covenant as mediator with the faithful 11, saying:
(Luke 22:28-30) 28 ”However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
These are kings as well, a nation of kings.
So the 144000 are also Jesus brothers, and the 12 tribes of the Israel of God, “heirs” must also be related to that perfection in Jesus Christ, which by partaking of his “body”, they too have the basis for the regeneration also of the 12 tribes mentioned in that scripture, the picture in symbol of the “nations of the earth”, the “earth” that the 144000 will rule as king with Jesus Christ for the 1000 years, to judge yes, but also to restore humanity into the perfection which they now share with Jesus Christ, of which is a perfect human body and blood sacrifice, two parts. One for the forgiveness of sins which is necessary to ever make the transition from Adamic corruption, to Last Adamic perfection, the body of Jesus perfection. Jesus Christ must also become the Eternal Father, replacing of course dead Adam in the human lineage, of course by ways God understands in perfection way beyond human understanding, in fact “into these very things angels are desiring to peer”. 1Pet1:12.
The ONLY way this is going to happen for earthlings is also by faith, and the blood is what that faith in part is about, and that blood must be applied as forgiveness for sins on earth now and in the 1000 years. This is why repentance is a quality to attain to now, this is going to be a process that must remove Adam (sin/death in flesh) over 1000 years from earth, however God phases that. But sin removal will be an issue, it says of the “great crowd”:
(Revelation 7:17) …the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
So for them, and the general earthly resurrections, mankind must be shepherded to the waters of life, meaning the sin complex has to be worked away from in time, by willing cooperation. Though the sacrifice is already offered to God, it has power, and it can be applied from then on for forgiveness of sins as mankind works out of this Adamic condition. This will require priests with Jesus Christ. This will require a 24 hour a day priesthood, always active through this period working with mankind, and through mankind, to make a “new earth” so to speak, where “earth”, as in “nations of the earth”; Gen22, and “families of the ground” Gen12; can be transformed to Rev22:3, when there is no longer any “curse”, and that “curse” of Gen3, was on the “ground” on account of Adam, so these references to earth and ground, are meaning mankind and the entire earthly life and planetary system, it must be perfected to God’s wisdom of what perfection truly is. A priesthood divine is required for this.
The “National” Priesthood as Kings; Kingdom of Priests (Exodus19:6; 1Pet2:9)
So this priesthood is also signified by God in Revelation, isolated for this exact reason into the “24 elders” as Israel of old set the pattern in that original priesthood. The fact that God calls it the “24 elders” means he is differentiating this symbol to teach a particular aspect of the 24 elders service. They are on thrones, and they are wearing crowns, this is how we know they picture the 144000, because no one else, not even angels, are given rulership with Jesus Christ but his heirs in that rebirth, and christened anointed status, the 144000. But they are divided as the priests as well into 24 divisions. King-priests, like Jesus.)
In ancient Israel, the divinely designed Levitical priesthood arrangement answers the question of why these “kings” on “thrones” are shown in 24 divisions. This was so that by arrangement of God, there was always a 24 hour service, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, even while observing the Sabbath, the priestly responsibility was in effect continually none the less.
Since all of the 144000 are in king-priest capacity, and powerful in holy spirit, and eager to serve in this great commission in God’s willed arrangement, they of course never tire out, the idea is continual service pre-arranged by God. The principle is that they will be applied by arrangement for continual service as kings AND priests in that Kingdom capacity to the entire earth and humankind during this 1000 year restoration. The fact like the 24 divisions, it is doubled in coverage of just 12, it means total application of priestly duties. The fact that it uses this 24 division, means this has to do with that priestly service capacity, as that is what it was applied to in Israel, this is a very clear picture of complete king-priest authority over the earth.
These are pictures of course of something that is NOT complete in reality until the 144000th assumes resurrection into that arrangement. So for John even to have been seeing things in which no one of the 144000 were there yet, was just God using the principle of calling things that are not, as though they were, because this finality of God’s power to redeem mankind, must be completed, and it can never be stopped nor undone.
(Romans 4:17) This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.
So as we know, many aspects of Revelation take place in this system, and many in the next system, and there are often references to events here which will accelerate when the full number (144000) is reached. But in the meantime, these are symbols of things which even the partial role call of the Kingdom in heaven is empowering now, even if in part, they are a whole number which is as good as complete, and it will complete along the course of Revelation’s “things which MUST take place”; Rev1:1.
So we see aspects of them, that will also be celebrated eternally even during the 1000 years, as this “new song” is sung, meaning these truly are new, unbelievable events by many, which WILL replace the illusion of this system lie current, with a grand reality to be done with all the misery, contradiction, confusion, greed, injustice, partiality, murder, sickness, pollution, etc, etc, of this old world. The more real that becomes to us in our hearts by faith, the more we are able to imagine the “lyrics” of the new song, the more the “new song” as a song of tears only of joy, a “new song” that man knows all the meaning of the words of how it should be, and all the wishes and hope that nothing is too good to be true, and nothing is too good to be true.
Because this stalwart brotherhood of Jesus Christ, is empowered by Jehovah and him to do these things as REALITY, they alone “master” the song, because they alone, by God’s power, and Jesus leadership, can ACTUALLY bring it into being, the wiping of all tears, the removal of death, the destruction of the “former things” of evils and lies, the restoration of ALL the lives lost, of all the stories that cried for justice, of the complete removal of hatred.
They themselves experienced these things with all mankind, just as Jesus many 144000 died for truth and righteousness in very hateful violent circumstances, and they know without Jesus Christ, and Jehovah sending him into this world, they too would have been goners, they realize this is undeserved kindness, but now they are equal with the gift, they are irreversibly righteous, and maybe that is why they cast their crowns off in Jesus presence, meaning they have humility, they know the real story of how all this came to be, not of their power originally, but of God and Jesus’ love.
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Similarities of 144000 and 24 elders:
Notice the similarities also of these two number groups, they both are kingly, on Zion (Rev14), and on thrones (Rev4:4). The 24 elders are depicted with golden crowns, also signifying a ruling meaning, as the 144000 also are shown as those rulers with Jesus Christ. Doubly certain, they are crowned in gold, AND on thrones.
Both groups have white robes, white garments signifying in the heavenly class incorruptible and immortal resurrection and new heavenly life identification for these as righteously cleansed, as these white robes are handed to them, Rev6:11; and the elders are wearing these garments on their thrones; Rev4:4. White robes are promised to the one conquering:
(Revelation 3:5) . . .He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will make acknowledgment of his name before my Father and before his angels.
Both the 24 elders and the 144000 have harps, the 144000 (Rev14:2), the 24 elders do as well (Rev5), which is shown just before the singing of the 24 elders and the new song – yet BOTH groups are shown to sing the “new song” while also having harps:
The 24 elders sing the “new song”:
(Revelation 5:8-10) And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the incense means the prayers of the holy ones. 9 And they (24 elders) sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
The 144,000 sing the “new song”:
(Revelation 14:1-5) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they (144000) are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.
The meaning of one referencing the other, is a reference to the whole “nation” and “kingdom” of the 144000, and it’s special significance also as the 24 elders as king-priests, and always the ones defining Jehovah’s greatness and proclaiming it in the heavenly statements. So the 24 elder arrangement can reference the 144000, and still be within it, but in a particular role, detailed further than the 144000 generalness.
24 elders statements:
Rev11:17: “because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king”
Rev4:11: “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power”
Rev19:4 “Amen! Praise Jah, YOU people!”
While certain qualities and actions of the 144000 are noted, the 24 elders statements are quoted, they are the voice of what the 144000 stand for as that signified arranged number, and they address both God and the Lamb:
(Revelation 4:9-11) And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11″You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”
(Revelation 5:8-10) And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Notice in the above, a part of the “new song” is the mentioning of “you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”, who are of course the 144000, whose “prayers” always request the Kingdom, just as Jesus also did, “let your kingdom come” for the “let your will be done on earth as in heaven”, heaven is the preceding place of perfect will of God, and that kingdom is what must accomplish this on earth, as God has in heaven.
So the 24elders arrangement symbology, is shown singing of the 144000, but as their kingdom and priesthood combination, as the 144000 are identified in later visions.
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They emphasize the “wrath”, “reward” priority to God’s servants, “resurrection” and judgment powers, and the protection of the earth by destroying those ruining it. They basically recap God’s will on earth, as the 144000 do as a group, so these 24 elders are a symbol of that group’s significance in God’s will, in greater detail.
(Revelation 11:16-18) And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
They also state the final statement, with the Amen, and call to people to praise Jehovah. The “amen” aspect is significant, it means all their power is for, as Jesus, “so be it”, it is as good as done.
(Revelation 19:1-4) After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, 2 because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment upon the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.” 3 And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God seated upon the throne, and said: “Amen! Praise Jah, YOU people!”
The references to the 144,000 are not about their statements but their main characteristics, though they do sing that same “new song” (they are mentioned in that song, Rev5:9), they represent in the “Israel of God”, a bigger, more general picture. Their basic division 12, where they come from in earth as a whole picture of nations, tribes, peoples and tongues is one of the “lyrics” in that song, Rev5:9, their first priority to begin this newness as “first-fruits”, they being purchased, declared righteous, stalwart following of Jesus all the way to heaven and beyond, and their uniqueness given them by God in that new Kingdom for earths restoration.
(Revelation 7:2-4) And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel…
(Revelation 14:1-5) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
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